Individualism vs Groups

topic posted Sat, June 2, 2007 - 1:58 PM by  George
I have been reading a number of posts on various internet lists, tribes, and groups that have a strong bias against forming face to face organizations. The majority of these seem to come from people who profess to have a golden dawn background. It can make one wonder if that approach has a tendency to breed a type of "selfishness" that in turn can produce a limitation in the practitioner. Of course it can just come down to the poster having personal problems when it comes to relating to other people face to face which is probably more likely.

Anyone else noticing this trend?
posted by:
George
Portland
  • Re: Individualism vs Groups

    Sun, June 3, 2007 - 10:57 AM
    one of the ironies of the internet is that it allows an outlet for the natural human drive towards socialization and group formation without the messiness which comes from face-to-face social interaction.

    or, think about it this way - i don't think that people would willingly join a group in which meetings were conducted in large halls broken up into individual rooms where everyone just typed notes to each other on slips of paper that were then posted on the ceiling...and yet, the internet is very much like that.

    to repeat - human relationships are messy, which is to say - they involve trying to establish rapore with others and some of that can become confrontational. no one really likes emotional confrontation - it's stressful and a bad form of stress at that. the internet provides a more sterile and controlled environment and hey, what could be more sterile than a golden-dawn ritual <snort> so i could see the appeal of remaining safely behind one's keyboard.

    additionally people are afraid to be judged by others, and that happens in face-to-face organizations...or at least the FEELING that you are being judged happens. i have met many many occultists who were terrified of "looking like a goober in front of other practioners" - well - screw that, become one with your gooberness and stop worrying about it i say! :^)

    or, like my kung-fu instructor would say:

    "people go through three stages regarding what other people think of them: the first is worrying about what other people think of them. the second is not caring about what other people think of them. the third is realizing that other people DON'T think about you, they think about themselves."

    to me that's the thing to remember about groups and group dynamics - everyone thinks about themselves first and foremost - they really don't think tons about you. so just be yourself and think about yourself and you'll be fine ya know?
    • Re: Individualism vs Groups

      Tue, June 5, 2007 - 3:18 AM
      As a lifelong non-joiner who joined the Pact as an act of metamorphosis, I wonder if the anti-grouping streak at least partly reflects the historically individual nature of Western occultism. In the days when you could wind up tied to a bonfire for mucking about with demons, magicians rarely gathered, as far as I can tell. A trust thing, perhaps ;)

      So perhaps even now, with the safety in anonymity offered by the Internet, does a reluctance to cluster still bedevil us? And might trust still constitute a serious issue, especially considering the number of occultnik arseholes I've found myself unwilling to cluster with.
      • Re: Individualism vs Groups

        Tue, June 5, 2007 - 3:27 AM
        I also want to comment on George's query about whether a bias against forming face to face groups suggests some defect in such practitioners. While I cannot pronounce with confidence on that one, I will add that the lack of social skills and graces evident in many occult forums I've seen (in contrast to many other forums which I was just about to describe as 'grown-up'!) suggests to me that indeed socially inept or immature individuals are cutting their teeth on Internet communication. I would like to think that they'll develop from there. But hey.

        Personally I hate this posting lark and look forward to meeting the birthday boy and friends face to face in September.
        • Re: Individualism vs Groups

          Tue, June 5, 2007 - 7:57 AM
          Personally, I don't believe that due to immaturity, Magi are reluctant to join groups. The question might be, for what purpose? I'm an individual, who use to belong to a group, and now have out-learned and out-stayed my welcome. Now what? Should I start my own group? That would take more energy out of other aspirations. So, I am content to "be."
          • Re: Individualism vs Groups

            Tue, June 5, 2007 - 10:38 AM
            Please don't mistake me to mean that anyone who won't join a group has growing up to do. I consider that just one of several explanations of which you have provided another.
            • Re: Individualism vs Groups

              Thu, May 8, 2008 - 4:24 PM
              Grins... Speaking of groups my clan, the Sorcerer's Guild, is getting ready to hold its third annual conclave up on Mt Hood over the 4th of July weekend. It will also celebrate our first decade of existence. Some of the topics of discussion will include arete, charisma, and general semantics as well as performing group rituals to benefit the membership.
              • Re: Individualism vs Groups

                Sat, May 10, 2008 - 11:17 AM
                Nice plug George. Alas, I won't be coming but my best wishes to you all all on that anniversary.

                In a culture that has no place for magic, our groups provide a context in which what we do proves its worthwhileness. More power to your elbow.
              • Re: Individualism vs Groups

                Sun, May 11, 2008 - 9:25 AM
                I have been to Mt Hood many years ago and I certainly enjoyed my stay!

                Would love to join you there, but I guess I will have to settle for my thoughts being there...

                Congratulations on the anniversary.
  • Re: Individualism vs Groups

    Fri, May 16, 2008 - 1:35 AM
    "t can make one wonder if that approach has a tendency to breed a type of "selfishness" "

    As someone who has considered joining IOT, I can only give my personal reasons for not yet doing so; the website is offputting - no lists of groups in the areas, no welcoming remarks, just comments that IF the applicant follows six months of work, and writes his homework up; practices at least an hour a day, then he MAY be indulged by the leaders and invited to join.

    I can see why that attitude manifests, but its still not very inviting.

    Particularly not to independent-minded folk such as are attracted to Chaos.

    By contrast, groups such as the various golden dawn offshoots, etc, generally invite people along to see the local temple, take part in public ceremonies, etc. Its all very fine to maintain the purity of the order by weeding out the unfit before they begin, but its ironic then to query the motives of those who dont run in droves to sign up.
    • Re: Individualism vs Groups

      Sun, May 18, 2008 - 11:46 PM
      "no lists of groups in the areas"

      The IOT website lists some website links or locations for a number of temples:

      iota.thanateros.org/links.php

      NB. many members prefer not to advertise where they are active or do not make websites, and that is their choice.

      "no welcoming remarks, just comments that IF the applicant follows six months of work, and writes his homework up; practices at least an hour a day, then he MAY be indulged by the leaders and invited to join."

      If you are accepted as a novice, then you are given a mentor. If you are close to a temple which is open to novices, then you can also be invited to regular meetings during the 6 months. The challenge is to become accepted as a novice - the IOT has pretty high standards.

      If a novice doesn't make it to initiation it's usually because he or she has dropped out voluntarily, one way or the other. Initiation isn't guaranteed because the novice has to complete the novitiate first.
      • Re: Individualism vs Groups

        Fri, May 23, 2008 - 1:48 PM
        One thing I forgot to mention; a lot of people arent novices any more, and dont see why they should need a "mentor", much less have to submit 6 months homework for assessment by unknown people. I'm giving you my opinion here, some simple feedback, as to why I dont join the group. It has nothing to do with me being selfish; it has everything to do with the fact that I'm not into the mentality of going to preschool and having teachers, assignments, and getting grades. I have run that particular type of thing beyond most people, and I'm past it. What I would like to find, is a group of serious magicians who are open to associating for the purposes of being creative. Unfortunately, it seems rather difficult to find that, as any such groups that may exist, are quite happy not seeking new members. For the record; any such groups who are open; I'm in the Bay Area, and would love to meet up. But I have no interest in spooging on a piece of paper and sending it into headquarters (TOPY take a bow), nor in exposing any magickal diaries I have to those who would grade my work.

        Rather I'm interested in attempting to go beyond current paradigms, and interlinking them with a new mystos to create a better future.

        BTW; I'm not meaning to attack you or your post; I thank you for your response; I'm just attempting to explain better than perhaps I did, why I'm not in a group at present.
        • Re: Individualism vs Groups

          Fri, May 23, 2008 - 3:22 PM
          Grins... well, people do respond to social trends and further also have a sense of things they think of as "traditional". Our magickal organizations seem to reflect this. So maybe it is past time to attempt to form some new "traditions"? Information science has given us an immense access to various approaches that people have taken. Judging from the level of complaint I strongly suspect we had better come up with some improved ones and damned quickly at that.

          Now, one does not have to join an existing organization. One can go out into the world and assemble one. I speak from personal experience in this case. It also helps if one has some knowledge of existing patterns that have worked for you. I certainly didn't form my concept off the top of my head. It drew from several different sources that had proven track records. It also doesn't attempt to create a level of "equality" or dominance as people's abilities vary quite a lot. My solution was to set aside hierarchy and it's attempt at imposing authority. Btw, this did not attempt to do away with informal leadership. That is encouraged. So are two other things, creativity and the ability to form into teams when so requested.

          Heh heh heh ..... When I asked people to do "homework" for the classes I presented I never "graded" the students' submissions, The idea was that students would learn something from doing the work involved. I certainly did from reading it..

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